Black & Silver's Chest?

snasapjasa wrote:
Do you have any rules conserning colour mixing? Is it not good to mix ps with Bs at all. And what do you think about Ps and Black together, would it hurt the Black and so on. Ive heard that The ps is the most sensitive colour when mixing.

My personal rules in breeding (colors) are to never cross SP with my BS and blacks unless absolutely necessary (and it had better be a darn good reason! such as when I bred to Peter.). SP can lighten the black coats (mostly undercoats) and cause banding, and the black coats can lessen the banding in the SP and make them too dark. I have seen some SPs from black dogs who look very "muddy" and did not have clear markings; they were very ugly, color-wise.

As I said, I've not noticed any problems with crossing (good-colored) BS and black.

I recently bred a black bitch with good color to a BS with a lighter undercoat (a Peter son), and expect to get a range of undercoat colors if she is pregnant. I debated for quite some time about using Ace as opposed to using his darker, slightly better structurally, brother Shady. Shady should have been my dog of choice, but Ace is smart, quick to learn, and LOVES to work (and his brother doesn't give a horse's patoot). Ace literally pesters me to train him.... and I should ::sigh:: Since I did this breeding for some people who are pestering me for performance dogs (obedience and/or agility), Ace was the one that I had to use. Sometimes one has to compromise a bit in a breeding program. There is nothing worse than breeding stupid schnauzers....

Jo wrote:When you mix black with b/s or p/s you have to be prepared for any blacks in the litter to have more white on them, eg. white feet, chest, chin. You can see these types of markings on the b/s and p/s when they are born, before the leg hair pales out and blends in the white markings so I think it is worth making a note of these markings as they may appear later on if you breed to black.

Very early on in my breeding program, I started culling (placing in pet homes) for white in my breeding program. I kept track of any white markings on puppies (chest, toes), and if, in my mind, there was too much white, that dog was GONE. Consequently, I get very little white in my dogs now. I know one breeder in the area (with similar lines to my early dogs) who didn't pay attention to this, and she ended up with HUGE splotches over the entire chest (the underside, not the front) of her dogs.

I think it is particularly important to watch for excess white in the BS and SP BECAUSE it can be hidden by grooming later on. There was a dark dog (not sure if it was BS or SP!) at the last set of shows I went to, and the dog had a white stripe going between its legs (in my mind, may actually have also gone up the front of the chest, a disqualification here, but was not visible). Each day that white stripe magically got smaller and smaller, and then was not at all visible by the fourth day.

I know in some breeds here (Dobermans?) white toenails are a breed disqualification in the ring. I have long felt that schnauzers should do that, too, but the "powers-that-be" would NEVER approve of that... probably because it would affect them too much. White toenails mean white toes!

I have done the same with white marking on puppies from my kennel, if its more than few hairs i sell them as pets and dont keep them for my self and I for the first time got one white nail in puppy few months ago and before that I had only seen white it in chest and a little bit in beard, but the nail was black when he was 8 weeks. Have you seen any of the grown up dogs with white nails?

Esther wrote:for the first time got one white nail in puppy few months ago and before that I had only seen white it in chest and a little bit in beard, but the nail was black when he was 8 weeks. Have you seen any of the grown up dogs with white nails?

Puppies are born with nails that are more white than dark (particularly if they have a slight bit of white on a toe) and they quickly darken to black if the white isn't excessive.

Yes, I have seen grown dogs with white nails.... usually in pet-quality dogs since I am a dog groomer (or was). It would be rather rude to go around checking toenails on dogs at the shows, although I have asked on occasion to go over someone's dog if I really liked it.

MsBritmor wrote:
My personal rules in breeding (colors) are to never cross SP with my BS and blacks unless absolutely necessary (and it had better be a darn good reason! such as when I bred to Peter.). SP can lighten the black coats (mostly undercoats) and cause banding, and the black coats can lessen the banding in the SP and make them too dark. I have seen some SPs from black dogs who look very "muddy" and did not have clear markings; they were very ugly, color-wise.

As I said, I've not noticed any problems with crossing (good-colored) BS and black.

I recently bred a black bitch with good color to a BS with a lighter undercoat (a Peter son), and expect to get a range of undercoat colors if she is pregnant. I debated for quite some time about using Ace as opposed to using his darker, slightly better structurally, brother Shady. Shady should have been my dog of choice, but Ace is smart, quick to learn, and LOVES to work (and his brother doesn't give a horse's patoot). Ace literally pesters me to train him.... and I should ::sigh:: Since I did this breeding for some people who are pestering me for performance dogs (obedience and/or agility), Ace was the one that I had to use. Sometimes one has to compromise a bit in a breeding program. There is nothing worse than breeding stupid schnauzers....

I was not going to say much in this post but one thing I noticed from MsBritmor is the lacking of working ability is lost in some colours. I find it also start to be very common in b/s as well as in blacks. I think if the miniature is loosing so much from his orginal use there is something very wrong going on i breeding. And that goes for more then colour mixing. This breed was not ment to be a lap dog or a show dog for it´s main purpose. I breed white miniature´s and they can work the coat will never be my first priority even though I will always look for harsh coat rather then soft white coat.

Therefor I know that in the future I will have to mix colour but it will never be with b/s since that colour so often lack all the ability to work.

AnnaD wrote:I was not going to say much in this post but one thing I noticed from MsBritmor is the lacking of working ability is lost in some colours. I find it also start to be very common in b/s as well as in blacks. I think if the miniature is loosing so much from his orginal use there is something very wrong going on i breeding. And that goes for more then colour mixing. This breed was not ment to be a lap dog or a show dog for it´s main purpose. I breed white miniature´s and they can work the coat will never be my first priority even though I will always look for harsh coat rather then soft white coat.

Therefor I know that in the future I will have to mix colour but it will never be with b/s since that colour so often lack all the ability to work.

No, you misunderstood me. The working ability was not lost in my dogs because they were BS. It was lost because I was concentrating on conformation (structure) too much and neglected that part of my dogs' gene pool. It happened that I still had the working ability here through Witch and her son Peter, both SP, but they both contained much of my old pedigree AND had a LOT of BS (mostly my dogs) in their pedigrees.

Don't start lumping colors with certain traits that they may not have. It boils down to the breeders and what they look for in their dogs, and what they are producing. I have a pure SP here from a very well-known breeder, and that dog is dumb as a box of rocks. Also sulks if corrected. Not exactly a good candidate for performance....

One must always consider the **ENTIRE** dog when breeding. It is too easy to lose genes that we may never get back.

If a schnauzer is stupid, is it still a schnauzer?

AnnaD wrote: I find it also start to be very common in b/s as well as in blacks.

Hmm how can you say that, Anna? Do you know any b/s or black dogs well or have you trained any dogs other then your white dogs in the schnauzer breed?

Esther wrote:

AnnaD wrote: I find it also start to be very common in b/s as well as in blacks.

Hmm how can you say that, Anna? Do you know any b/s or black dogs well or have you trained any dogs other then your white dogs in the schnauzer breed?

Yes I have Even thogh I do not own black or b/s I have known the breed for quite some time from the year 1987 both Giants and miniature and happend to have the fortune to train both sizes And both colours for the Giant but the first white one I trained was Caruso and he has excellent working temprament which he has given to his offsprings as well as the first white female that I did start to train Jafrak Snow Wonder and she has very high prey drive and does hunt

Unfortunatly I have never got to know the real schnauzer the standard type. Maybe I will one day who knows

MsBritmor wrote:

AnnaD wrote:I was not going to say much in this post but one thing I noticed from MsBritmor is the lacking of working ability is lost in some colours. I find it also start to be very common in b/s as well as in blacks. I think if the miniature is loosing so much from his orginal use there is something very wrong going on i breeding. And that goes for more then colour mixing. This breed was not ment to be a lap dog or a show dog for it´s main purpose. I breed white miniature´s and they can work the coat will never be my first priority even though I will always look for harsh coat rather then soft white coat.

Therefor I know that in the future I will have to mix colour but it will never be with b/s since that colour so often lack all the ability to work.

No, you misunderstood me. The working ability was not lost in my dogs because they were BS. It was lost because I was concentrating on conformation (structure) too much and neglected that part of my dogs' gene pool. It happened that I still had the working ability here through Witch and her son Peter, both SP, but they both contained much of my old pedigree AND had a LOT of BS (mostly my dogs) in their pedigrees.

Don't start lumping colors with certain traits that they may not have. It boils down to the breeders and what they look for in their dogs, and what they are producing. I have a pure SP here from a very well-known breeder, and that dog is dumb as a box of rocks. Also sulks if corrected. Not exactly a good candidate for performance....

One must always consider the **ENTIRE** dog when breeding. It is too easy to lose genes that we may never get back.

If a schnauzer is stupid, is it still a schnauzer?

Totally agree