hello from canada need help with dock and crop ban

blacknwhite wrote:I live in england where it is illegal to crop or dock and i think neither of these features being left natural have been detrimental to a dogs health in the miniature schnauzer. Infact i love natural tails and ears

concerned 4 future wrote:Don't see you saying anything about Dewclaws. I guess you must still remove them. You know that Dewclaw removal is considered cosmetic as well. But on the other hand cat de clawing is not on the list of cosmetic surgeries.

I don't want to argue with you about docking and cropping I know you views on the subject being against and mine for being for. What I would like to say is that the CVMA should really take a look at what they are calling cosmetic and should realize that these procedures are an importance to both canine and owner future welfare interests in the breed concerned.

In stead of my opinions here are facts that docking and cropping are in the welfare interest in the breed concerned.

This one is actual letters from individuals that have seen trouble with tails normally docked.
http://www.cdb.org/letters.htm#cocker

This one is about the results of ban on various breeds.
http://k9alliance.com/articles/Pet_Law_and_Legislation.pdf

this one is photographic evidence of tail damage.
http://k9alliance.com/photos.html

this is a hygiene related issue
http://k9alliance.com/point3.htm

Preservation of Breed standards
http://k9alliance.com/point5.htm

And if that is not enough to think about, and you want to read more. Go to this link the petition its self and read why many others are signing to stop the VMA's in furthering their ban and aid in lifting bans already in place.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/8/stop-the-canadian-veterinary-medical-association-in-furthering-the-dockcropdew-claw-removal-ban

concerned 4 future wrote:Just because you have not had a problem does not mean that others have not. I just posted information showing you that tail damage does exist.
http://www.cdb.org/letters.htm#cocker You can not speak for others although we all like to try.
I have stopped using my opinions and like you have based my information on what I have encountered through breedings. What i didn't learn about from hands on experience I was sure to research.

. Research from post ban countries have
indicated dramatic decreases in births of pups of previously docked and/or cropped breeds. An
Australian study of number of births of docked breeds pre ban and post ban shows a significant
decrease in number of births over 16 normally docked breeds. As of May 2007, the average
decrease over the 16 breeds was 42%. The drop in doberman pinscher births alone was 82%.
(2) A post ban aftershock will put many of our breeders out of the dog fancy world and many of
these cropped and/or docked breeds at the risk of extinction.
I'm assuming the research is being done in UK as well as other banned countries.
Maybe our schnauzers are not not in danger, but other breeds are. I tried to get the exact % of schnauzers affected but was unsuccessful.

Proof of tail injuries decline births, I'm assuming that people want the Breed to be bred to the original standards. Or no longer can employ these breeds to continue as a working dogs, function or risk injury.
I know others feel the same as I or else the numbers on the petition would not be going up.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/8/stop-the-canadian-veterinary-medical-association-in-furthering-the-dockcropdew-claw-removal-ban

Alberto wrote:

concerned 4 future wrote:Don't see you saying anything about Dewclaws. I guess you must still remove them. You know that Dewclaw removal is considered cosmetic as well. But on the other hand cat de clawing is not on the list of cosmetic surgeries.

I don't want to argue with you about docking and cropping I know you views on the subject being against and mine for being for. What I would like to say is that the CVMA should really take a look at what they are calling cosmetic and should realize that these procedures are an importance to both canine and owner future welfare interests in the breed concerned.

In stead of my opinions here are facts that docking and cropping are in the welfare interest in the breed concerned.

This one is actual letters from individuals that have seen trouble with tails normally docked.
http://www.cdb.org/letters.htm#cocker

This one is about the results of ban on various breeds.
http://k9alliance.com/articles/Pet_Law_and_Legislation.pdf

this one is photographic evidence of tail damage.
http://k9alliance.com/photos.html

this is a hygiene related issue
http://k9alliance.com/point3.htm

Preservation of Breed standards
http://k9alliance.com/point5.htm

And if that is not enough to think about, and you want to read more. Go to this link the petition its self and read why many others are signing to stop the VMA's in furthering their ban and aid in lifting bans already in place.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/8/stop-the-canadian-veterinary-medical-association-in-furthering-the-dockcropdew-claw-removal-ban

IMHO we CAN call them cosmetic because after years of docking & cropping stop (even if in Italy you are free to do it or not) I didn't experience with any of my dogs problems of tail damage or ear infections - my dogs lived all happy lives with their natural ears, tails and declaws. And honestly I don't think that those things have anything to do with preservation of breed standards, because european experience shows that dobermanns, rottweilers, schnauzers etc... can be good specimens of their breed even if fully natural.

Alberto wrote:

concerned 4 future wrote:Just because you have not had a problem does not mean that others have not. I just posted information showing you that tail damage does exist.
http://www.cdb.org/letters.htm#cocker You can not speak for others although we all like to try.
I have stopped using my opinions and like you have based my information on what I have encountered through breedings. What i didn't learn about from hands on experience I was sure to research.

. Research from post ban countries have
indicated dramatic decreases in births of pups of previously docked and/or cropped breeds. An
Australian study of number of births of docked breeds pre ban and post ban shows a significant
decrease in number of births over 16 normally docked breeds. As of May 2007, the average
decrease over the 16 breeds was 42%. The drop in doberman pinscher births alone was 82%.
(2) A post ban aftershock will put many of our breeders out of the dog fancy world and many of
these cropped and/or docked breeds at the risk of extinction.
I'm assuming the research is being done in UK as well as other banned countries.
Maybe our schnauzers are not not in danger, but other breeds are. I tried to get the exact % of schnauzers affected but was unsuccessful.

Proof of tail injuries decline births, I'm assuming that people want the Breed to be bred to the original standards. Or no longer can employ these breeds to continue as a working dogs, function or risk injury.
I know others feel the same as I or else the numbers on the petition would not be going up.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/8/stop-the-canadian-veterinary-medical-association-in-furthering-the-dockcropdew-claw-removal-ban

Sorry but I can speak also for someone else as I am active member in the Italian Schnauzer Pinscher Club since 1990 and always in contact with many other breeders of my own breed in Italy and abroad, but never heard from them about these tail damages.

Again, here in EU we experienced before all these things - and before that many said and wrote what you are writing, but after many years we are still here alive and kicking and our breeds too, healthier as never before thank to the progress in health screening. And if your concern is to have a fall in the request of puppies of previously-docked breeds, well, if they change their mind just for the tail I would say they are not serious fanciers of the breed...

MsBritmor wrote:If you wanted support in your battle against proposed Canadian anti-docking/cropping legislation, you really came to the wrong place because this is primarily a European forum, and most of those countries have had bans in place now for a few years. Even if some of these individuals fought their bans in the beginning, they have now adapted to the changes, and are probably content for the most part with the new looks of their dogs. Well then could you please direct me to a forum that may be interested in this subject. It has never been my intentions to stir up old stories. Here in Canada this is current news and is in the process.

You might try getting the Americans on your side since most of us still dock and crop. I, for one, no longer crop, and wouldn't miss cropping at all, although I do enjoy seeing a nice ear crop on a pretty head. I do not care for tails, however, and do not understand all the commotion about docking shortly after birth when it is such a minor procedure at that time. I wonder how many people who are pushing for this legislation still circumsize their male offspring after birth... a few people seem to have their heads on backwards... or stuck up another portion of their anatomy.