Stud males

Hi to all.

I would like to ask the following.
A friend of mine, here in Slovenija, has a small kennel (2 bitches) and is looking/interested in getting/buying a male stud dog. The dog should be older than one year and the smaller the better (up to 35cm would be ideal). The pedigree should not include DeDalmata, Svarcava and possibly Matraszepe blood lines.
It isn't really important if the dog is multi champion or something like that, but waht is important is that the dog is good (by standard, has all teeth, etc.).
Although he is looking for a stud dog to buy he is also interested in a stud dog for breeding in case noone can/would want/has to sell. So if any white schnauzer kennels will come to Eurodogshow that will be held in Celje, Slovenija in autumn 2010, and are interested in breeding (providing stud male) do contact me.
If anyone has any advice or knows anything, please, do not hesitate to contact me.
Thank you and best regards,
Sebastjan

P.S.
Since I'm new to the forum, let me introduce myself. I'm Sebastjan. I own a white male mini schnauzer, that is our joy. He is Slovenian junior champion, and I can probably provide pictures if anyone is interested.

Yes, pictures please

If I understand your message, you would BUY a dog on this forum? or? you are looking for a male who can mate with your female??

I think you first have to see the male and than you can think if you will buy him, or am I not get you question?

Amistar's wrote:If I understand your message, you would BUY a dog on this forum? or?

I was asking if anyone knows or if there is someone who has an adult dog for sale, not a puppy, that would be suitable for breeding. A breeder here in Slovenia bought an adult dog from Bamburs kennel (Bamburs Ivory Globe-Trotter) so that's why I was asking. I also know that some kennels borrow stud for a specified amount of time.

Amistar's wrote: or you are looking for a male who can mate with your female??

That also, yes. And if possible in the vicinity of Slovenia. The puppies in my friends kennel were all within standard heigh, the problem that happened was that some male/female combinations of other kennels gave to big puppies (over 36cm), and our Schnauzer club gave the the owner of the stud a temporary ban on breeding and my friend cannot use him at the moment.
As I already stated, I hope some white schnauzer will come to Eurodogshow in Celje (September 2010) so that we can see some dogs from around Europe in person and to make some contacts with other kennels.

Amistar's wrote: I think you first have to see the male and than you can think if you will buy him, or am I not get you question?

Of course I know that one has to see the dog first and then decide if buying him is an option.
Kind regards again to all,
Sebastjan

Outcrossing tends to produce larger size, while linebreeding or inbreeding tends to hold size or bring it down.

MsBritmor wrote:Outcrossing tends to produce larger size, while linebreeding or inbreeding tends to hold size or bring it down.

I actually didn't know that about outcrossing, however inbreeding/linebreeding is not allowed in my country and I think also in most of Europe.
Kind regards,
Sebastjan

Linebreeding is ok in most countries.

MsBritmor wrote:Outcrossing tends to produce larger size, while linebreeding or inbreeding tends to hold size or bring it down.

Seriously? I hear this the first time ... Please, be so kind, justify this.

videc wrote:

MsBritmor wrote:Outcrossing tends to produce larger size, while linebreeding or inbreeding tends to hold size or bring it down.

I actually didn't know that about outcrossing, however inbreeding/linebreeding is not allowed in my country and I think also in most of Europe.
Kind regards,
Sebastjan

Really??
Line male or female is always better for breeding, isn't it ?

lborodach wrote:

MsBritmor wrote:Outcrossing tends to produce larger size, while linebreeding or inbreeding tends to hold size or bring it down.

Seriously? I hear this the first time ... Please, be so kind, justify this.

I would also like to know if this really is true.

videc wrote:

MsBritmor wrote:Outcrossing tends to produce larger size, while linebreeding or inbreeding tends to hold size or bring it down.

I actually didn't know that about outcrossing, however inbreeding/linebreeding is not allowed in my country and I think also in most of Europe.
Kind regards,
Sebastjan

lborodach wrote: Really??
Line male or female is always better for breeding, isn't it ?

In Slovenia you won't be able to breed if ancestors are to close together, for example if a male and female have the same grandparent (and grandparents) as far as I know (2nd and 3rd generations). Unless national Kennel Club approves breeding. So it's not forbidden per se but has to be explicitly allowed.

videc wrote:
In Slovenia you won't be able to breed if ancestors are to close together, for example if a male and female have the same grandparent (and grandparents) as far as I know (2nd and 3rd generations). Unless national Kennel Club approves breeding. So it's not forbidden per se but has to be explicitly allowed.

It's terrible

lborodach wrote:It's terrible

What do you mean by "terrible"?
Anyway, two pictures of my emerald Unfortunately taken just before he was groomed so his coat is a little long.

lborodach wrote:

MsBritmor wrote:Outcrossing tends to produce larger size, while linebreeding or inbreeding tends to hold size or bring it down.

Seriously? I hear this the first time ... Please, be so kind, justify this.

videc wrote:

MsBritmor wrote:Outcrossing tends to produce larger size, while linebreeding or inbreeding tends to hold size or bring it down.

I actually didn't know that about outcrossing, however inbreeding/linebreeding is not allowed in my country and I think also in most of Europe.
Kind regards,
Sebastjan

Really??
Line male or female is always better for breeding, isn't it ?

I cannot PROVE it; I just know after breeding and talking to schnauzer people for forty years that this generally runs true.

Do any of you ever bother to trace back your pedigrees to see what is back there? When I bred to that black German import in 2007, I was surprised to find the roots of my own dogs behind him. I also was shocked to see how inbred the von Havenstad dogs were (I mean REALLY inbred for several generations!). Some of you have tighter pedigrees than you think<G>

Outcrossing = a little bit of this and a little bit of that; no consistency unless both dogs are very similar in structure/type. There tends to be a fair amount of mediocrity (ordinary/nothing special) unless one of the parents is prepotent for its good qualities (most unlikely as few dogs are). A case of rolling the dice to see what comes up.


Linebreeding = more consistency in type and structure (good and bad) as there are fewer genes to deal wilth. My favorite way to breed. Double up on the good points and never double up on the faults!

Inbreeding = intensifies the gene pool (good AND bad) as it is very much more limited. Bad genes come quickly to the forefront; with culling out the bad, it will get a breeder where he wants to go much faster. It is a breeding tool that should only be used in knowledgeable hands.

Technically speaking, there is no such thing as outcrossing in the U.S., as all the miniatures go back to the Dorem dogs of the 40s. I thought I had outcrossed when I bred to that German import. Surprise! He went back to my dogs' roots and to a BS I had once groomed<G> We live in a very small world.

Thank you very much, MsBritmor , for share your knowledge with us!

Another thing I like to do when breeding is to study ALL the dogs in the pedigree (even going back off the paper). Don't breed to a dog.... breed to the dogs behind that dog. In other words, go to the KENNEL that consistently produces what you need in your own dogs. Anyone can produce one nice dog... but if the dogs behind him are not so good, what do you think you are going to get when you breed to him? Chances are it will not be what you were hoping to get!

MsBritmor wrote:Another thing I like to do when breeding is to study ALL the dogs in the pedigree (even going back off the paper). Don't breed to a dog.... breed to the dogs behind that dog. In other words, go to the KENNEL that consistently produces what you need in your own dogs. Anyone can produce one nice dog... but if the dogs behind him are not so good, what do you think you are going to get when you breed to him? Chances are it will not be what you were hoping to get!

I'm not sure I understand your words correctly ... with my bad english

Please could you give an example of a pedigree, that do you mean with "...go to the Kennel..."?

MARANT wrote:

MsBritmor wrote:Another thing I like to do when breeding is to study ALL the dogs in the pedigree (even going back off the paper). Don't breed to a dog.... breed to the dogs behind that dog. In other words, go to the KENNEL that consistently produces what you need in your own dogs. Anyone can produce one nice dog... but if the dogs behind him are not so good, what do you think you are going to get when you breed to him? Chances are it will not be what you were hoping to get!

I'm not sure I understand your words correctly ... with my bad english

Please could you give an example of a pedigree, that do you mean with "...go to the Kennel..."?

Go to the kennel = using a dog from another breeder who is known for producing very good heads in all their dogs, if you need to improve on the head of your dogs you breed, don't just use a stud dog who has a good head but the parents, grandparents etc have not such good heads.


There is also another saying, 'don't use the dog you like, use his sire' as you know that dog has already produced what you like.

Go to the kennel = using a dog from another breeder who is known for producing very good heads in all their dogs, if you need to improve on the head of your dogs you breed, don't just use a stud dog who has a good head but the parents, grandparents etc have not such good heads.

Thank you very much for your explain! Now I understand even with my bad english

There is also another saying, 'don't use the dog you like, use his sire' as you know that dog has already produced what you like.

Yes, you are right, this is a fact!

MARANT wrote:

MsBritmor wrote:Another thing I like to do when breeding is to study ALL the dogs in the pedigree (even going back off the paper). Don't breed to a dog.... breed to the dogs behind that dog. In other words, go to the KENNEL that consistently produces what you need in your own dogs. Anyone can produce one nice dog... but if the dogs behind him are not so good, what do you think you are going to get when you breed to him? Chances are it will not be what you were hoping to get!

I'm not sure I understand your words correctly ... with my bad english

Please could you give an example of a pedigree, that do you mean with "...go to the Kennel..."?

Your English is GREAT! Maybe I didn't write it well enough for you to understand.

One breeder (kennel) may have dogs who consistently have good heads; another may have dogs with great coats, or with good toplines. Go to the breeder who consistently produces what you need in your dogs. If your dog needs head improvement, go to the breeder whose dogs usually have great heads.

Don't come to me! I've been struggling with heads since I started breeding<G> While I have had some nice heads in some of my dogs, that is not what my dogs tend to produce. When I think of my own dogs (and what I like), I see long necks, fairly good toplines, and nice movement.

Anyone who has bred long enough will have some consistency in their dogs, good or bad, depending on how they interpret their breed standard and how they pick/evaluate their dogs. I know one breeder who consistently has dogs with bad fronts.... they are too wide and usually are out-at-the-elbows. This must be due to something she (mistakenly) looks for when they are puppies???? But she has been breeding dogs for longer than I have.

Thanks again! Now I understand what you mean

And I'm totally agree with you....
It's right, that if you want to improve something, it must be taken not one single dog, but the whole line completely. Most important - to find the correct blood line!

Don't come to me! I've been struggling with heads since I started breeding<G> While I have had some nice heads in some of my dogs, that is not what my dogs tend to produce. When I think of my own dogs (and what I like), I see long necks, fairly good toplines, and nice movement.

So, for example, if I need long necks, good toplines and good movement, then I can "come to you"

videc wrote:

lborodach wrote:It's terrible

What do you mean by "terrible"?

videc wrote:
"you won't be able to breed if ancestors are to close together, for example if a male and female have the same grandparent (and grandparents) as far as I know (2nd and 3rd generations)".

I mean by "terrible" just that it's terrible when people do not have the opportunity to use the lines dogs in their breeding ... because linebreeding is the main way in breeding purebred dogs.

MsBritmor wrote:Outcrossing tends to produce larger size, while linebreeding or inbreeding tends to hold size or bring it down.

MsBritmor wrote:I cannot PROVE it; I just know after breeding and talking to schnauzer people for forty years that this generally runs true.

I was always sure that one way or another size depends on the size of their parents and all dogs in the pedigree. For example, my little Akulina with male small size, in linebreeding combination, had big puppy male. For me it was a big surprise ... Why? Because there are very large dogs in her pedigree far back :-(
And she had small children in outcrossing combinations ...

MsBritmor wrote:
Do any of you ever bother to trace back your pedigrees to see what is back there?

Sure, many of us are doing it! But it is very difficult in fact and often impossible to know the truth about the back standing dog