Color mixing.

Is color mixing ok in your country, and what’s your opinion on mixing colors?

I know its hot topic for some and that’s why I’m interested in hearing you opinion.

It’s still ok to mix color in Iceland and I have mixed to extend my own gene pool, but this is hot topic in the Icelandic Schnauzer club and think in the end they will ban mixing.

Yes, as most of you probably already know, we can interbreed the colors here in the U.S.

I started out with a BS (with a predominently SP pedigree), and bred to a black, while keeping BS, my primary color choice. Eventually, the SP and black colors were introduced into my breeding program. After nearly 40 years of breeding and occasionally crossing the colors, I have come to the conclusion that the black-coated dogs (blacks and BS) can safely be crossed, but crossing those dogs with SP is disasterous for all colors (cannot speak for whites).

The SP will eventually introduce banded hairs into those black coats, particularly along the sides of the neck and behind the shoulder blades, and the undercoats will often start to lighten (depending on the undercoat color of the SP), while the SPs will begin to darken and lose the banding in their coats.

Here most of the black (and some BS) schnauzers in our rings have been "enhanced".... dyed. Many of our SPs look more like BS. Whenever one looks across a ring and has to ask "what color is that?", that color has then become INCORRECT. I am one of a few who wish that we could do color-testing on our winning dogs.

Thanks a lot for this, great to have someone with so many years of breeding experience.

I mixed black and p/s last year and that puppies came out ok (all black), but this is something to really think about, because I have heard this before about the p/s color, I know for myself will properly not mix p/s again with black and never with black and silver, but I don’t know about the whites (I really like to hear some experience stories about white and p/s mixing, good or bad)

I own one female from Fabio Ferrari from Scedir kennel in Italy and I know that he has been preaching a lot about this color testing. I even think it’s now something that all Italian Champion has to do before getting the title; please feel free to correct me if that’s wrong. But I don’t think coat coloring is a problem here in Iceland, hope that stays that way.

The colour mixing in Poland is ok but I'm not sure if we don't have to get a permission. Maybe someone is better informed than me...

Here in Sweden it is still allowed to mix colors, and as I see it that's most important in whites. Whites beying a fairly new color with very limited gene pool !! But it is here as everywhere always those that are against color mixing and want to ban it. Just hope that they wont get their wish in the nearest future

I just have on the floor now 3 pepper/salt puppies out of my white male CH Karwish Nebraska Blizzard and my black/silver female Debessiere Ange Rebelle, I am so proud of these puppies and I am keeping one male from that litter, looking forward to use him for some of my white females in the future.

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Silfurskugga Galileo P.S Traveller at 9 weeks

In the netherlands it's forbidden, but my dream is a white male from colored ( grand) parents in the futur.... I'm glad that I live in Belgium now, if I buy a dog my pedigree stays a normal pedigree

In france it's forbidden too ! and if a pup has a different color of our parents the pup is registreted in "initial title"
he will have a "certificate of birthday" but for transform that on pedigree it's more difficult than if he had the same color of our parents ...
For that, in france it's not easy to breeder black minis ...

des matins de cristal wrote:In france it's forbidden too ! and if a pup has a different color of our parents the pup is registreted in "initial title"
he will have a "certificate of birthday" but for transform that on pedigree it's more difficult than if he had the same color of our parents ...
For that, in france it's not easy to breeder black minis ...

Sorry I dont understand. Why is hard to breed black minis? Are you getting other colors than black, from black to black litters?

Sorry I dont understand. Why is hard to breed black minis? Are you getting other colors than black, from black to black litters?

Certainly. As black is dominant over other colours, many blacks have other colour genes. This may cause some "surprises" at birth.

Ok I understand. Here in Iceland we have only had one black to black litter that I know off that came other than black puppies, this one litter had one ps girl and rest black.

black - black mating can produce any of the other colours. In the UK such a mating produced the first white puppy bred here. This combination can also produce some good coloured black/silver dogs as well as the previously mentioned pepper/salt. It all depends on what colours are hiding in the pedigree.

In Belgium, interbreeding of colours is not allowed. I think it is a shame.
Most of us want to improve the breed, but we are not allowed to use better qualities of other colour ranges to do so. And some of these qualities are just so much better in an other colour of Schnauzer.
Speaking of white mini’s I see even more advantages of colour mixing. If you want to keep a good pigmentation, I think it will remain necessary.
One of the reasons, I guess, why it is prohibited is that if they allow it, all colours will have to show in one ring, and less CAC’s will be distributed.

des matins de cristal wrote:if a pup has a different color of our parents the pup is registreted in "initial title"
he will have a "certificate of birthday" but for transform that on pedigree it's more difficult than if he had the same color of our parents ...

In Belgium not. For example if a b/s pup came out of two black parents it will receive a normal pedigree of the KMSH and it will be allowed to show and breed with others b/s just like any other b/s.

Randi's Ushabti wrote:One of the reasons, I guess, why it is prohibited is that if they allow it, all colours will have to show in one ring, and less CAC’s will be distributed.

I don't think thats the reason for banning color mixing, here in Sweden we do allow color mixing but we still show each color in the ring and get CAC for each color seperatly.

Silfurskuggar wrote:

Randi's Ushabti wrote:One of the reasons, I guess, why it is prohibited is that if they allow it, all colours will have to show in one ring, and less CAC’s will be distributed.

I don't think thats the reason for banning color mixing, here in Sweden we do allow color mixing but we still show each color in the ring and get CAC for each color seperatly.

Ok, whrong guess of me

Esther wrote:Is color mixing ok in your country, and what’s your opinion on mixing colors?

I know its hot topic for some and that’s why I’m interested in hearing you opinion.

It’s still ok to mix color in Iceland and I have mixed to extend my own gene pool, but this is hot topic in the Icelandic Schnauzer club and think in the end they will ban mixing.

In Germany it is not allowed to mix colours . The FCI gives one CACIB for every race. That’s the reason for separate colours by schnauzers, because black, bs, ps, are separate races. They have a special race-number. So you can get CACIB in every case.
If you make colour mixing open, FCI could see one race in miniature schnauzer !!

On the other hand breeders sometimes need more genetic variation. I thing this will be the problem in future.

I think its a shame that it is forbidden in The Netherlands. I have seem a lot of dogs that I really, really liked, in among other America, Argentina, Brazil and much other countries. But they are color mix and that is forbidden in The Netherlands, so sadly!!!

Hello everybody, in Italy no mating between dogs of different colors is allowed for any size. No "special permission from the Kennel Club" for such matings is available for the ones who want to do it. Furthermore, puppies who are of different color than their parents, receive a pedigree but cannot take part to dog shows, neither used in breeding. Obviously there is no proven genetic motivation for that...potentially valuable breeding dogs have to be sold as pets!

Alberto wrote:Hello everybody, in Italy no mating between dogs of different colors is allowed for any size. No "special permission from the Kennel Club" for such matings is available for the ones who want to do it. Furthermore, puppies who are of different color than their parents, receive a pedigree but cannot take part to dog shows, neither used in breeding. Obviously there is no proven genetic motivation for that...potentially valuable breeding dogs have to be sold as pets!

But can you sell them to another countries as breeding and showdogs?

Esther wrote:

Alberto wrote:Hello everybody, in Italy no mating between dogs of different colors is allowed for any size. No "special permission from the Kennel Club" for such matings is available for the ones who want to do it. Furthermore, puppies who are of different color than their parents, receive a pedigree but cannot take part to dog shows, neither used in breeding. Obviously there is no proven genetic motivation for that...potentially valuable breeding dogs have to be sold as pets!

But can you sell them to another countries as breeding and showdogs?

Interesting question...I don't know I asked for it to someone better informed on "mini things" than me!

Alberto wrote:

Esther wrote:

Alberto wrote:Hello everybody, in Italy no mating between dogs of different colors is allowed for any size. No "special permission from the Kennel Club" for such matings is available for the ones who want to do it. Furthermore, puppies who are of different color than their parents, receive a pedigree but cannot take part to dog shows, neither used in breeding. Obviously there is no proven genetic motivation for that...potentially valuable breeding dogs have to be sold as pets!

But can you sell them to another countries as breeding and showdogs?

Interesting question...I don't know I asked for it to someone better informed on "mini things" than me!

Esther, the answer to your question seems to be YES. I know of a p/s dog out of black parents exported from Italy to Scandinavia who won show titles there and also sired some litters. Today I was talking with friend mini breeder about this subject and I discovered that in the last couple of years things seems to be changed so what I wrote before wasn't entirely correct - sorry!- and these dogs (with color different from their parents) can now take part to dog shows in Italy. The only thing that isn't clear yet is if they can be used in breeding now in Italy, but I asked for and I will keep you updated!

In any case mixing colors is forbidden that's for sure!

In Poland you can mixed colours if you will have a special permission from Kennel Club.

I think that we need this especially for white minis. In Europ a gene pool is very small for this breed .
And I think in few year it will be smaller and it will be really hard make some combination.
And exterier of many white is very bad - How make it better without mixing colours.

But like our fiend sad I think mixing PS with BS and B makes PS very very dark. And it should be do only if its really necesarry.

Since the first of January it is allowed in the Nerherlands to mix Pepper&Salt x Black in Riesenschnauzer, Standard Schnauzer and miniature Schnauzer. In Miniature Schnauzer it is also allowed te mix white x Black.

WOW I'm shocked... then you can show dogs with colours in pedigree now ??
Why only white with black and not white with b-s ??? There is some reason for this ?

Randi's Ushabti wrote:Since the first of January it is allowed in the Nerherlands to mix Pepper&Salt x Black in Riesenschnauzer, Standard Schnauzer and miniature Schnauzer. In Miniature Schnauzer it is also allowed te mix white x Black.

Ok and before that it was banned??